1 00:01:01,470 --> 00:01:07,410 Warden, Paul Crump has been up to the brink of doom and back down again six, 2 00:01:07,710 --> 00:01:12,010 eight times, something like this? It's been 11 times, I think, for Paul on 3 00:01:12,010 --> 00:01:17,450 dates, and about 40 continuances in relation to his case over a period of 4 00:01:17,450 --> 00:01:20,930 years. And this in itself is metal torture. 5 00:01:21,410 --> 00:01:26,450 These men live from day to day, and of course with this pressure, I'm inclined 6 00:01:26,450 --> 00:01:28,350 to think that they die daily with it. 7 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,080 For nine years, Paul Crump has tried to tell his story. 8 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,740 Either nobody listened, or nobody cared, or nobody believed. 9 00:01:55,160 --> 00:02:01,900 The crime for which he stands convicted took 10 00:02:01,900 --> 00:02:06,820 place on a Friday morning, the 20th of March, 1953, 11 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,800 at the Chicago Stockyards. 12 00:04:27,340 --> 00:04:31,020 Hey, better move that car, unless you want to get sparks all over it. 13 00:05:51,690 --> 00:05:52,690 And personnel. 14 00:05:52,870 --> 00:05:54,830 Fred Rush, plant guard. 15 00:05:57,550 --> 00:06:00,010 In that bag, the payroll. 16 00:06:00,630 --> 00:06:02,710 More than $17 ,000. 17 00:06:10,150 --> 00:06:13,010 Ted Zukoski, captain of a plant guard. 18 00:06:13,390 --> 00:06:14,670 A family man. 19 00:06:14,990 --> 00:06:16,150 Four kids. 20 00:06:19,820 --> 00:06:22,080 Every Friday morning, the same routine. 21 00:06:23,180 --> 00:06:26,940 Paymaster and guard join Martin Carlson of the credit union. 22 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,320 In that box, more than $3 ,000. 23 00:06:31,420 --> 00:06:35,300 And every Friday, up the back stairs of the cafeteria where the employees' 24 00:06:35,460 --> 00:06:36,620 checks are cashed. 25 00:06:36,980 --> 00:06:38,200 Like clockwork. 26 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,420 A ritual familiar to hundreds of employees. 27 00:08:59,950 --> 00:09:03,810 right that morning when a call came in from police headquarters to the city 28 00:09:03,810 --> 00:09:04,810 desk. 29 00:09:05,390 --> 00:09:10,430 The most daring daylight robbery in recent years was climaxed by a vicious 30 00:09:10,430 --> 00:09:12,150 assault and murder. 31 00:09:13,330 --> 00:09:15,590 Something had to be done fast. 32 00:09:16,550 --> 00:09:17,810 The police knew it. 33 00:09:18,450 --> 00:09:21,430 The cry for justice would soon be heard. 34 00:09:22,630 --> 00:09:24,550 Something just had to be done. 35 00:09:53,610 --> 00:09:55,570 I'm John Justin Smith of the Daily News. 36 00:09:56,190 --> 00:09:58,990 Somebody told me Paul Crump would make a good story. 37 00:10:00,310 --> 00:10:05,250 Nine years ago, he was brought into Cook County Jail, convicted along with four 38 00:10:05,250 --> 00:10:10,010 others of the murder of Ted Zukowski. The other four drew prison terms. 39 00:10:10,790 --> 00:10:12,850 Crump alone was sentenced to the chair. 40 00:10:20,410 --> 00:10:22,430 This is the man who will throw the switch. 41 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,200 Jack Johnson, warden of the Cast Iron Jail. 42 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,940 And yet, even the cons will tell you that there's no more decent a guy. 43 00:10:31,620 --> 00:10:35,060 No one of deeper understanding than the old man. 44 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,180 The old man's got a problem. 45 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,240 He doesn't believe in taking human life. 46 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:47,020 Yet his sworn duty has already called upon him to execute two men. 47 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,180 And I first came into the jail here, was first assigned to the jail. 48 00:11:09,100 --> 00:11:13,100 Paul had an altogether different philosophy than he has today. 49 00:11:13,820 --> 00:11:18,340 And as you know, we're not interested, of course, in the court action or in the 50 00:11:18,340 --> 00:11:19,299 sentence itself. 51 00:11:19,300 --> 00:11:23,440 At this level here, the institution, we're interested in the rehabilitation 52 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:24,179 the man. 53 00:11:24,180 --> 00:11:28,300 And I would say Paul Crump is an example of a rehabilitation program. 54 00:11:28,940 --> 00:11:33,100 Oh, wait, wait. You say a rehabilitation program. You mean you think he is 55 00:11:33,100 --> 00:11:37,370 rehabilitated? Well, I would say yes. His entire philosophy has changed. 56 00:11:38,190 --> 00:11:42,270 He has an altogether different view on life. He has a greater feeling for his 57 00:11:42,270 --> 00:11:43,270 fellow man. 58 00:11:43,670 --> 00:11:49,630 Today he can sit down and discuss many of the problems that arose in the past 59 00:11:49,630 --> 00:11:51,790 and problems that face him today. 60 00:11:52,130 --> 00:11:56,970 And he speaks and talks of them in the sense of attempting to work them out. 61 00:11:57,590 --> 00:12:02,150 Look, a man walked in your jail here eight years ago, and today he's a 62 00:12:02,150 --> 00:12:03,370 man. Can you take a... 63 00:12:03,610 --> 00:12:08,410 And tell me why, what happened to Paul Crump as an individual that changed him? 64 00:12:09,190 --> 00:12:15,710 Well, by taking the man out of the atmosphere of a caged animal, by 65 00:12:15,710 --> 00:12:19,750 certain freedoms within the institution, by having him become involved in 66 00:12:19,750 --> 00:12:21,770 programs within the institution. 67 00:12:22,470 --> 00:12:28,030 Well, in Paul's case here, we gave him a job, one. 68 00:12:28,590 --> 00:12:32,310 We put him to work in what we term a convalescent tier. 69 00:12:33,010 --> 00:12:36,570 We allowed him a position of responsibility. 70 00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:37,769 Doing what? 71 00:12:37,770 --> 00:12:43,330 Well, in this case here, in this convalescent here, he has charge of 72 00:12:43,530 --> 00:12:47,350 fellows down there that are sent in from the hospital itself. 73 00:12:47,810 --> 00:12:54,430 These fellows are, in some cases, amputees, men that have had 74 00:12:54,430 --> 00:12:58,430 ulcers and are on the way to recovery. 75 00:12:58,870 --> 00:13:00,930 He has done a fine job down there. 76 00:13:02,140 --> 00:13:06,000 Well, you could term it in some sense orderly, but in the institution we term 77 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,480 it, peer clerk, and he has complete charge of the peer and the 78 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:11,480 each one of these men. 79 00:13:11,740 --> 00:13:16,160 And his responsibility, for instance, is one of the things that's gotten at Paul 80 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,360 Trump. Yes, understanding responsibility, and I think this is the 81 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:25,100 his life he's ever really accepted responsibility of knowing the needs of 82 00:13:25,100 --> 00:13:26,019 fellow man. 83 00:13:26,020 --> 00:13:31,200 When I first came in, he was very belligerent, angry at the world. 84 00:13:31,610 --> 00:13:33,390 He didn't actually believe in anything. 85 00:13:33,590 --> 00:13:38,590 He thought that the physical power of a man was the determining factor in rule. 86 00:13:38,870 --> 00:13:42,910 But over the period of the last four or five years now, he's completely changed. 87 00:13:43,230 --> 00:13:48,430 He doesn't have a belligerent attitude at all. He has accepted an entire new 88 00:13:48,430 --> 00:13:54,030 philosophy. He has an understanding of the problems that face other men around 89 00:13:54,030 --> 00:13:55,030 him for the first time. 90 00:13:55,250 --> 00:13:59,070 He has accepted these problems and attempted in his own way to... 91 00:14:00,490 --> 00:14:02,750 shall we say, bring about an answer for these people. 92 00:14:02,950 --> 00:14:07,670 He has become very sympathetic with people within the area in which he's in 93 00:14:07,670 --> 00:14:09,270 charge. What happened to him? 94 00:14:09,530 --> 00:14:13,110 Well, Senator is an animalistic creature. What happened to him? 95 00:14:13,510 --> 00:14:19,910 He has become involved in actions within the institution at which he recognizes 96 00:14:19,910 --> 00:14:22,270 the feelings of his fellow man. 97 00:14:22,630 --> 00:14:28,210 And I have a feeling that because of these things, his attitude today has 98 00:14:28,210 --> 00:14:29,650 definitely changed. 99 00:14:30,330 --> 00:14:34,850 I can't get it out of my mind, Jack Johnston, that you're wasting your time 100 00:14:34,850 --> 00:14:35,850 Paul Crump. 101 00:14:36,530 --> 00:14:40,610 You let the man dress, you rehabilitate him, you've improved him from his animal 102 00:14:40,610 --> 00:14:42,250 state, and yet he's going to die. 103 00:14:42,730 --> 00:14:43,730 Isn't this right? 104 00:14:44,330 --> 00:14:49,010 Let me say that you've emphasized punishment for 250 years in this 105 00:14:49,010 --> 00:14:52,410 it hasn't worked. You still have a steady increase in crime on the outside. 106 00:14:52,730 --> 00:14:54,790 Capital punishment accomplishes nothing. 107 00:14:57,930 --> 00:14:59,910 society is reluctant to kill this man. 108 00:15:00,590 --> 00:15:02,870 There were no eyewitnesses to the crime. 109 00:15:03,130 --> 00:15:06,790 The principal testimony against Crump came from two people. 110 00:15:07,610 --> 00:15:13,670 One, the Libby guard, Fred Rush, identified Paul by his voice only four 111 00:15:13,930 --> 00:15:15,370 give me your gun. 112 00:15:15,570 --> 00:15:18,030 And these were hastily shouted through a mask. 113 00:15:19,230 --> 00:15:24,350 The decisive testimony came from Hudson Tillman, who already had confessed to 114 00:15:24,350 --> 00:15:25,350 the crime. 115 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:27,780 Only four men were observed at the scene. 116 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,280 It was Tillman who implicated the fifth, Crump. 117 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:36,700 In 1954, the Supreme Court of Illinois reversed the decision of a lower court, 118 00:15:36,780 --> 00:15:38,200 and Crump was given another trial. 119 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,500 Again, he was found guilty and again condemned. 120 00:16:02,860 --> 00:16:06,780 have anything to do with killing that guard at Libby's? Most certainly did 121 00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:08,500 Nothing more? 122 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:09,920 Positively nothing. 123 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,680 Where were you? What did you do to say somebody killed somebody else out at 124 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,460 Libby's? I was with a woman. I was in a woman's bed. 125 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,760 Where? The exact time that this thing was happening. 126 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:22,040 Where and who? 127 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:23,720 The lady's name is Faye. 128 00:16:24,220 --> 00:16:25,220 Faye Hinton. 129 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:34,480 Thank you. 130 00:19:11,050 --> 00:19:15,150 I'd say we got to say at 5 .30 or 6 o 'clock, maybe, you know. 131 00:19:15,830 --> 00:19:19,510 And this would have been on Friday, March 20th, 1953, 132 00:19:20,490 --> 00:19:22,690 right? Early morning was Friday, 1953. 133 00:19:23,310 --> 00:19:24,850 What time did you go to sleep? 134 00:19:25,210 --> 00:19:30,030 I would say we went to sleep about 7 .30, maybe even later than that. Like I 135 00:19:30,030 --> 00:19:31,370 said, it might have been 8 o 'clock. 136 00:19:31,850 --> 00:19:33,930 In the morning, March 20th. 137 00:19:34,250 --> 00:19:37,350 Three hours before the robbery out at Libby's, right? 138 00:19:37,870 --> 00:19:42,350 And you slept until when? About one o 'clock in the afternoon, two hours after 139 00:19:42,350 --> 00:19:43,670 the robbery. 140 00:19:44,330 --> 00:19:46,410 And did she ever testify on your behalf? 141 00:19:46,750 --> 00:19:50,050 She testified, but... What did she say? 142 00:19:50,330 --> 00:19:52,950 She testified to just what I said to you. 143 00:19:53,270 --> 00:19:56,410 That at the time that that man was killed, you were with her. Is that what 144 00:19:56,410 --> 00:19:59,490 said? That's right, but... Where is she now, do you know? No, I don't. Have you 145 00:19:59,490 --> 00:20:02,470 ever heard from her? I heard from her a few times until the... 146 00:20:04,850 --> 00:20:09,190 Public ridicule. She was held up. She was ridiculed so much by coming out and 147 00:20:09,190 --> 00:20:15,550 testifying that I was with her and under the circumstances under which I was 148 00:20:15,550 --> 00:20:16,229 with her. 149 00:20:16,230 --> 00:20:21,450 And I was married at the time, and she was married but separated. Both of us 150 00:20:21,450 --> 00:20:22,449 were separated. 151 00:20:22,450 --> 00:20:27,770 And you know what type of an impression a testimony like this makes upon people. 152 00:20:30,570 --> 00:20:32,770 All right, after you left Faze, where'd you go? 153 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,140 hours after I left Faye, I picked up my wife. 154 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:39,600 There is history. 155 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,520 We went on a little shopping trip. 156 00:20:49,740 --> 00:20:52,820 That afternoon, Paul and his wife went to a barber shop. 157 00:20:53,140 --> 00:20:54,380 Oh, and this is pertinent. 158 00:20:55,380 --> 00:20:59,260 One of the robbers that was identified at the scene of the crime wore a goatee. 159 00:21:00,430 --> 00:21:05,190 The affidavit of the barber who worked on Paul that afternoon positively states 160 00:21:05,190 --> 00:21:08,050 that his face was completely devoid of a goatee. 161 00:21:11,350 --> 00:21:16,470 Later that afternoon, Paul put his wife on a bus and made plans to see her that 162 00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:17,470 night. 163 00:21:17,630 --> 00:21:19,770 The plans never materialized. 164 00:21:20,350 --> 00:21:24,830 At nine o 'clock, he was picked up at Hudson Tillman's house and charged with 165 00:21:24,830 --> 00:21:25,830 murder. 166 00:21:26,670 --> 00:21:32,710 I'd like to know why on the evening of Friday, March 20th, you went out to 167 00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:33,710 Tillman's house. 168 00:21:33,770 --> 00:21:35,210 Out in Morgan Park, was it? 169 00:21:35,490 --> 00:21:37,630 Yeah. What were you doing out there? 170 00:21:39,170 --> 00:21:43,350 I went out there after learning from a fellow I knew. 171 00:21:44,130 --> 00:21:47,410 He's a co -defendant in the case, Eugene Taylor. 172 00:21:47,890 --> 00:21:48,890 Yeah. 173 00:21:49,030 --> 00:21:53,810 I found out in my conversation with Gene that... 174 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,860 A robbery had been committed out of Libby's. 175 00:21:58,180 --> 00:21:59,780 How did he find out, do you know? 176 00:22:00,860 --> 00:22:01,860 Yes. 177 00:22:02,380 --> 00:22:07,760 He informed me that he was one of the participants in the robbery. 178 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,540 And what did you go up to Tillman's house for? 179 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:21,400 Well, from what Gene said, Tillman had ran away with more than 180 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:22,400 his share of the loot. 181 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,160 You were going out to get it back, is that it? I wasn't going to get it back. 182 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,100 was going out there to rob Tillman. 183 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,580 To rob Tillman. Yeah, I was going to rob Tillman. 184 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,240 All right, Paul, back to March 20th. 185 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,200 You left your wife on 43rd Street, and you were waiting for a bus out to Morgan 186 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:40,440 Park. What happened then? 187 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:45,360 I see Eugene Taylor, and he says, yeah, you just got one seat. 188 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,620 I asked him what he gave me a lift, and he says, yeah. So I got in the car. 189 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,380 Why did he say that to you, you're just the guy I want to see? Well, after I got 190 00:22:53,380 --> 00:22:54,420 in the car, he told me. 191 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,260 He says, asked me, did I know where Hudson Tillman lived? 192 00:22:58,940 --> 00:23:00,020 I told him, yes. 193 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:05,320 Where did Hudson Tillman live? Hudson Tillman lived on 111th, I don't know the 194 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:06,320 exact address. 195 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:07,480 In Morgan Park? Yes. 196 00:23:07,980 --> 00:23:10,240 He says, well, I've got to see this guy. 197 00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:11,500 I says, why? 198 00:23:11,740 --> 00:23:13,260 Man, he's got some do -over. 199 00:23:13,860 --> 00:23:17,720 Did he tell you where he got that money or where they got the money? No, not at 200 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:18,589 that time. 201 00:23:18,590 --> 00:23:21,630 When we hit State Street at about 47, 202 00:23:22,790 --> 00:23:28,470 this flash came on. He had the radio on, and this came over the radio 203 00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:34,830 about a four -armed bandit sticking up Libby McNeil and Libby Plant, you know. 204 00:23:35,570 --> 00:23:36,990 And killing a guard. 205 00:23:37,330 --> 00:23:38,670 And killing a guard, yes. 206 00:23:38,910 --> 00:23:45,810 And they named the amount of money that was taken, and that was 207 00:23:45,810 --> 00:23:46,810 my score. 208 00:23:47,630 --> 00:23:48,830 That was my keeper. 209 00:23:49,090 --> 00:23:53,390 Eugene Taylor told you at that moment that he took part in that holdup. That's 210 00:23:53,390 --> 00:23:57,350 right. And that's the first you heard of the Libby robbery, right? 211 00:23:57,650 --> 00:23:58,189 That's right. 212 00:23:58,190 --> 00:24:02,670 I started questioning him with regards to it. He said it was a split up out 213 00:24:02,670 --> 00:24:04,590 there and they couldn't stay together. 214 00:24:04,790 --> 00:24:11,270 And that Hudson had taken more than his half of the loot 215 00:24:11,270 --> 00:24:14,810 and had cut out with it. It was supposed to have been about six. 216 00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:18,020 seven thousand dollars involved that Hudson ran away with. 217 00:24:18,340 --> 00:24:24,660 So I told him, I said, look, if it's this much dough involved, man, I want 218 00:24:24,660 --> 00:24:28,920 of it. If I take you out there, show you where Hudson live at, we run into 219 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:33,940 Hudson, you know, if I can squeeze this money out of him, baby, I want some. How 220 00:24:33,940 --> 00:24:35,580 would you squeeze the money out of him? 221 00:24:35,780 --> 00:24:39,720 To be frank, any way that I'm allowed. 222 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,920 The street right in front of the house, the pool room. 223 00:24:48,540 --> 00:24:52,160 Went around to the side of the house and knocked on the door. 224 00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:58,360 The 225 00:24:58,360 --> 00:25:06,040 police 226 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,480 commandeered the Tillman house when they discovered that a car he had borrowed 227 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,180 and abandoned was the one used in the Libby robbery. 228 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:14,720 Tillman himself wasn't home. 229 00:25:17,220 --> 00:25:21,580 Paul and Jean were the first to arrive, and before any questions were asked, 230 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,940 they were taken into custody and held for three days. 231 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,220 Lieutenant told me when I was at 11th Street the first time he picked me up 232 00:25:32,220 --> 00:25:38,540 he was going to find the nigger that committed the damn job out there. 233 00:25:43,100 --> 00:25:46,380 He was going to 234 00:25:46,380 --> 00:25:55,700 bring 235 00:25:55,700 --> 00:26:00,620 me back down to 11th Street and I wouldn't come down there. 236 00:26:00,970 --> 00:26:04,850 from off of a rack except as a cork. All right, they bothered you for a couple 237 00:26:04,850 --> 00:26:07,350 of days and then they turned you loose. A couple of days, it seemed like an 238 00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:11,910 eternity. You have no idea of how it would feel to be strung up by your hands 239 00:26:11,910 --> 00:26:13,610 and punched and beat around. 240 00:26:14,170 --> 00:26:15,610 Why did they turn you loose? 241 00:26:16,250 --> 00:26:20,690 They turned me loose because they didn't have anything to connect me with that 242 00:26:20,690 --> 00:26:26,450 crime. They felt that he checked my alibis and things evidently because he 243 00:26:26,450 --> 00:26:28,470 that I had an airtight alibi. 244 00:26:28,940 --> 00:26:32,000 He said that when he first turned me loose. He turned me loose. They wouldn't 245 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,220 even book me for this. All right, so what did you do then? What happened to 246 00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:42,940 I went home. I was in a daze. I was in pain. I went home. I knocked on the door 247 00:26:42,940 --> 00:26:46,320 of the house, and my wife had come down. 248 00:26:46,740 --> 00:26:50,560 And she was there. She opened the door, and that's all I remember until about 249 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,520 three or a couple hours later. I fell out. I was in a fever. 250 00:26:55,210 --> 00:27:00,750 You sweated me until I was in a fever. You walked in the house and you fainted. 251 00:27:00,750 --> 00:27:01,729 Is that the idea? 252 00:27:01,730 --> 00:27:03,330 This was your mother's house? 253 00:27:03,530 --> 00:27:07,650 My mother's. The 431 was 110th Street. Morgan Park. Morgan Park. 254 00:27:07,990 --> 00:27:09,490 And how long did you stay there? 255 00:27:10,290 --> 00:27:14,630 I stayed there until they came back and re -arrested me again. 256 00:27:14,950 --> 00:27:19,950 About three days later, I was in this fever. 257 00:27:22,430 --> 00:27:23,730 March 26th. 258 00:27:24,030 --> 00:27:28,150 1953, Hudson Tillman confessed to the Libby robbery. 259 00:27:28,550 --> 00:27:30,970 He named Paul Crump as Trigger Man. 260 00:27:31,550 --> 00:27:32,710 His mother's house. 261 00:27:33,110 --> 00:27:36,030 His mother, Mrs. Lonnie Crump, was the first to awaken. 262 00:27:37,110 --> 00:27:39,770 The backyard was full of police. 263 00:27:40,050 --> 00:27:42,670 They'd come right in with their guns drawn. 264 00:27:43,470 --> 00:27:45,270 And it frightened me so. 265 00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:46,930 I was so frightened. 266 00:27:59,900 --> 00:28:04,680 And I read a pounding at my door, my back door. And I went to the door. 267 00:28:05,180 --> 00:28:10,740 And I looked out and there was lots of policemen out in the back. 268 00:28:11,380 --> 00:28:14,840 They reached in, asking where was Hope. 269 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,360 Asking where was the money. 270 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,640 My son, John, was in the bedroom. 271 00:28:25,020 --> 00:28:30,580 And so they asked, was he, who he was, was he Paul? I told them, no, Paul was 272 00:28:30,580 --> 00:28:32,120 downstairs, sick in bed. 273 00:28:40,020 --> 00:28:41,800 Some went in the fridge room. 274 00:28:42,900 --> 00:28:45,740 Some went in the down on their knees, crawling around. 275 00:28:46,100 --> 00:28:47,480 Said they was looking for money. 276 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,060 Asked them, where was the money? 277 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,640 So they wrecked downstairs to where he was in his place. 278 00:28:54,940 --> 00:28:58,060 They broke the glass out the door to get here. 279 00:29:24,270 --> 00:29:27,490 So some went into the bedroom where my son was laying. 280 00:29:29,010 --> 00:29:35,550 We couldn't even stand on his feet. 281 00:29:36,430 --> 00:29:38,950 So my daughter started to... 282 00:29:38,950 --> 00:29:43,810 started 283 00:29:43,810 --> 00:29:50,350 to protect and help him. 284 00:29:50,770 --> 00:29:53,930 And they told her to keep her hands off of him because... 285 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:55,440 They didn't. They'd take her down. 286 00:29:56,060 --> 00:30:00,000 So they went and got a belt that belonged to my son -in -law. 287 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,080 And taken him and tied his hands. 288 00:30:05,540 --> 00:30:09,680 And they pushed him and shoved him along as they went. 289 00:30:10,140 --> 00:30:16,460 And just as far as I could see them, they would still push him and tell him 290 00:30:16,460 --> 00:30:17,460 run. 291 00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:19,680 Because they wanted to see him again. 292 00:30:22,060 --> 00:30:23,720 Just as far as I could. 293 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:29,260 They arrested me. They kidnapped 294 00:30:29,260 --> 00:30:32,960 me. That's what they did. It wasn't an arrest. 295 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:39,480 It was something that would come out of one of Hitler's dialogues, 296 00:30:39,900 --> 00:30:43,640 where he treated me. Did they knock you around some more? Yes, they knocked me 297 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,280 around. And that's when you came out with what they called your conspiration. 298 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:48,119 that it? 299 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,660 No, that was a couple of days later. It's what it means for a couple of days. 300 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,120 After they picked me up the second time. 301 00:30:55,360 --> 00:31:00,860 And you... I got a good question for you. Why in the world do you suppose 302 00:31:00,860 --> 00:31:06,760 guy Tillman implicated you in this murder case? Why did he say you of all 303 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,400 was the person who had shot the guard? 304 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:18,600 This is a $64 question. This is nothing hard to figure out. People just want 305 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,590 to know. All you have to do is go over and... and check the records in the 306 00:31:21,590 --> 00:31:26,570 criminal court they've got five the man was out on five armed robberies to get 307 00:31:26,570 --> 00:31:31,930 life on that's right he's gonna get life on each one of those charges but the 308 00:31:31,930 --> 00:31:37,330 fact there's always been bad blood between so many times my brother was uh 309 00:31:37,330 --> 00:31:44,030 with his wife rather my brother was born with his wife and 310 00:31:44,030 --> 00:31:48,470 his sister too and i had a relationship with 311 00:31:49,420 --> 00:31:54,440 Some of the ladies in the family, and all of this, plus the fact that Truman 312 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,060 just a punk in my sight. 313 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:00,080 I mean, it was something to just sit around and step out of the way. It was a 314 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:01,080 dope dream. 315 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:02,700 It was a dope dream, yes. 316 00:32:04,980 --> 00:32:07,120 The testimony of a narcotic, sir. 317 00:32:08,260 --> 00:32:11,000 Enough to arrest a man, but not enough to indict him. 318 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,600 There remained a grim formality of getting a confession. 319 00:32:17,230 --> 00:32:21,670 As it happened, the process involved a series of bitterly contested maneuvers 320 00:32:21,670 --> 00:32:22,770 the state's attorney's office. 321 00:32:23,770 --> 00:32:28,910 The promise made to Paul's first attorney, Bill Gerber. The first 322 00:32:28,910 --> 00:32:34,110 state's attorney, Richard Austin, John, asked me to see him with regard to Paul 323 00:32:34,110 --> 00:32:35,110 Crust. 324 00:32:35,310 --> 00:32:37,170 I conferred with Mr. 325 00:32:37,390 --> 00:32:42,770 Austin at that time, and I asked him permission to talk to Paul, Mr. Grady. 326 00:32:43,590 --> 00:32:48,420 I told Paul that anything he stated... to the state's attorney was agreeable 327 00:32:48,420 --> 00:32:50,300 with me because I wanted him to tell them the truth. 328 00:32:51,020 --> 00:32:55,160 However, I did not want him to say anything outside of my presence because 329 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:56,160 his attorney. 330 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,320 He assured me that nothing would be done. 331 00:33:01,780 --> 00:33:08,400 At that point, I then asked Mr. Austin that if any statements were to be made 332 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:13,360 any statements were to be taken by my client, that he was to notify me. And we 333 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:14,840 had an understanding to that effect. 334 00:33:16,910 --> 00:33:23,570 The next I heard, a day or two later, that confessions had been obtained from 335 00:33:23,570 --> 00:33:24,590 Paul Crump and others. 336 00:33:24,970 --> 00:33:31,150 And I also heard and later ascertained that the confessions were witnessed by 337 00:33:31,150 --> 00:33:37,470 six or eight reputable people from the county of Cook, some who lived 40 or 45 338 00:33:37,470 --> 00:33:39,410 miles away from the criminal court cell. 339 00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:44,850 And these people tried to keep the attorney who represented a man in a 340 00:33:44,850 --> 00:33:49,020 case. knowing that he represented them, away from them when they took the 341 00:33:49,020 --> 00:33:50,020 statement of that nature. 342 00:33:50,940 --> 00:33:56,160 Did Trump get a fair trial the first time out? Well, John, it wasn't a fair 343 00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:00,300 trial. I never believed it to be a fair trial. That's why we took it up to the 344 00:34:00,300 --> 00:34:01,300 Supreme Court. 345 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,960 And apparently the Supreme Court felt as I did. 346 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,700 They reversed the case and said he didn't get a fair trial. 347 00:34:08,780 --> 00:34:14,020 At the time I undertook the defense of Paul Trump and talked to him, I thought 348 00:34:14,020 --> 00:34:15,020 he was innocent. 349 00:34:15,889 --> 00:34:19,570 During the defense of this case, I thought he was innocent. 350 00:34:21,330 --> 00:34:24,610 When we went up to the Supreme Court, I thought he was innocent. 351 00:34:25,050 --> 00:34:27,030 And frankly, I still think he's innocent. 352 00:34:27,510 --> 00:34:32,030 I think this is a sin to the police that you didn't do it. I said to the police 353 00:34:32,030 --> 00:34:39,030 that I did do it because at the time, with the pressure and brutality, the 354 00:34:39,150 --> 00:34:44,489 wimpy interrogation, I was feverish. I had a temperature of 103 .6. 355 00:34:45,620 --> 00:34:50,380 Anybody put you around? I've been strung up for three days. How did they strung 356 00:34:50,380 --> 00:34:51,380 you up? Where? 357 00:34:51,580 --> 00:34:54,300 Where? It's 1121 South State Street. 358 00:34:54,540 --> 00:34:55,980 And they strung you up by what, Paul? 359 00:34:57,300 --> 00:34:58,360 By my arm. 360 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:05,040 By my arm? Over the door? It was something out of one in 35, something 361 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,420 them. That's why people don't believe these kinds of things happen. 362 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:08,960 Police. 363 00:35:09,860 --> 00:35:10,960 Police in Chicago. 364 00:35:15,180 --> 00:35:18,540 Two days you were at Stockyard Station. That's right. While they talked to you. 365 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,240 That's right. Did you have any sleep at Stockyard Station? No, I didn't. Did you 366 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:23,240 have anything to eat? 367 00:35:23,300 --> 00:35:24,300 No. 368 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:44,000 One of the fellows that was in the cell next to me says, What happened, man? 369 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,740 I said, I don't know. They come in and they handcuff me behind my back. 370 00:35:48,140 --> 00:35:49,960 He said, well, baby, you're going to get it. 371 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,240 I said, what do you mean, get it? He said, that's it. You're going to get it. 372 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:03,740 He said, all right, walk. 373 00:36:04,060 --> 00:36:05,080 And I take it easy. 374 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,140 Walk. Then I turn around, watch it there. 375 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,720 And then I spin it, turn me around in a circle. 376 00:36:12,620 --> 00:36:14,040 Then I heard the door open. 377 00:36:14,430 --> 00:36:19,910 And hands grabbed me on the shoulder and by my arms, in my arms, so I wouldn't 378 00:36:19,910 --> 00:36:21,450 be able to move from side to side. 379 00:36:25,310 --> 00:36:26,310 Crump? 380 00:36:26,570 --> 00:36:27,870 Yes. He said, turn around. 381 00:36:28,490 --> 00:36:32,810 I said, what? Turn around, goddammit. And then we were stripped naked. 382 00:36:33,270 --> 00:36:36,690 And you stood up there on the bench, and what happened? We stood on the bench, 383 00:36:36,750 --> 00:36:38,770 and that's when we were interrogated. 384 00:36:39,370 --> 00:36:41,370 They started shooting questions at us. 385 00:36:43,370 --> 00:36:47,890 Where's the money? Over and over again. What makes you niggas think that you 386 00:36:47,890 --> 00:36:51,810 could get away with pulling a daylight robbery of one of the biggest companies 387 00:36:51,810 --> 00:36:52,810 in Chicago? 388 00:36:53,290 --> 00:36:55,550 We're going to burn you, all of you. 389 00:36:56,230 --> 00:37:01,350 You were the guy that had on the blue suit. You were the guy that had on the 390 00:37:01,350 --> 00:37:02,350 checkered coat. 391 00:37:03,050 --> 00:37:09,630 They beat me, they punched on me. They were telling me about just detail, the 392 00:37:09,630 --> 00:37:15,500 detailed activity of the... People that participated in the robbery, they said 393 00:37:15,500 --> 00:37:19,840 it to me over and over again until it became the thing that I knew, I knew by 394 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,720 heart. Their theory, if this was their theory, I knew it by heart. 395 00:37:25,660 --> 00:37:28,060 I even knew the part that they wanted me to play. 396 00:37:29,380 --> 00:37:34,280 I confessed, and you would confess, and anybody else that was in the position 397 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:35,740 that I was in would confess. 398 00:37:37,300 --> 00:37:40,120 And as a result of that, you spent nine years right on... 399 00:37:40,540 --> 00:37:42,980 In this jail, because I'm waiting to be executed. 400 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,360 Right here, and no one believing a fragment of what I said. 401 00:37:48,100 --> 00:37:52,080 No one caring, really, because no one knew the first one to come out here to 402 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:53,080 interview me. 403 00:37:53,100 --> 00:37:55,640 Mr. Dodd, speaking of Mr. Dodd. 404 00:37:57,300 --> 00:38:03,340 State's attorneys, none of them went out of their way. I learned later on that 405 00:38:03,340 --> 00:38:06,800 this was supposed to be one of their duties, to help a defendant prove 406 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,380 innocent, but no one is doing it. 407 00:38:08,620 --> 00:38:14,380 attempted to raise their hand to see whether or not the things that I claimed 408 00:38:14,380 --> 00:38:15,600 were true. 409 00:38:16,100 --> 00:38:19,520 The only thing they wanted was a conviction. They got the conviction, and 410 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,400 it. They got the conviction, Paul, and now you're sitting in the Cook County 411 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:24,760 Jail waiting execution. 412 00:38:25,820 --> 00:38:29,540 How many times have you been up to within a day or two? Oh, I've lost 413 00:38:30,140 --> 00:38:31,900 I don't even like to think about it. 414 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,140 Twice I was arrested, twice brutalized, Paul says. 415 00:38:38,540 --> 00:38:41,960 We deny this emphatically. The police said it at the last trial. 416 00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:46,660 Here's the condemned man version. 417 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:49,440 I hung down. 418 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:54,580 And I didn't think I was going to ever get down. 419 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,540 And he said, now what did you do with the money? 420 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,720 I said, I don't know anything about the money. 421 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,040 He said, who was the guy that had the bag and the shotgun? 422 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,760 I said, I don't know who had the bag. 423 00:39:08,060 --> 00:39:10,660 shotgun. And I started praying. 424 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:12,600 I started saying prayer. 425 00:39:13,140 --> 00:39:14,780 And I started praying out loud. 426 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,460 What prayer do you know? I started saying the Hail Mary. 427 00:39:17,740 --> 00:39:19,000 I started saying Our Father. 428 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:24,080 And I was saying it. First, I was saying it to myself. 429 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,620 Why would you say the Hail Mary? You weren't a Catholic at the time? 430 00:39:27,860 --> 00:39:28,860 Yes, I was. 431 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,700 I'm a Catholic. I've been a Catholic ever since 1946. 432 00:39:33,420 --> 00:39:35,640 And I said it because I wanted some help. 433 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:37,380 Did you get help, Paul? 434 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,800 No, I didn't get any help. When I started praying, they came in and they 435 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:41,800 started. 436 00:40:21,540 --> 00:40:23,020 Paul? Grab on, Paul. 437 00:40:25,220 --> 00:40:26,220 Paul, 438 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:29,760 what did they do? 439 00:40:33,340 --> 00:40:39,680 Well... One of them... Somehow, I don't know who it was. 440 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:40,900 One come up to me... 441 00:40:42,790 --> 00:40:47,110 And he hit me in the stomach and he told me to stop praying. He says, you black 442 00:40:47,110 --> 00:40:48,890 son of a bitch. So what do you know? 443 00:40:49,790 --> 00:40:53,450 She should be in the jungle. 444 00:40:56,610 --> 00:40:59,190 He said, 445 00:41:00,810 --> 00:41:07,070 what would the white mother of God want to do with a black son of a bitch like 446 00:41:07,070 --> 00:41:08,070 you? 447 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,020 in the hands of the naval young civil liberties lawyer Don Moore. 448 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:35,080 Our civilization's act in killing Crump does more harm 449 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:41,840 to our tradition of decency 450 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:48,680 and civility than Crump's act, if he did it, in 451 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:53,120 killing that guard. Now that's a fact, and the reason it's a fact is because 452 00:43:53,690 --> 00:43:56,970 This killing is done in cold blood. 453 00:43:57,330 --> 00:43:58,970 That killing wasn't. 454 00:43:59,250 --> 00:44:05,150 I don't think that our government should kill anybody in cold blood ever, under 455 00:44:05,150 --> 00:44:07,650 any circumstances. There's no excuse for it. 456 00:44:08,090 --> 00:44:13,750 All right. How do you feel about Paul Crump's charges of police brutality and 457 00:44:13,750 --> 00:44:15,890 the police denial of those charges? 458 00:44:18,250 --> 00:44:22,730 I would say that the overwhelming probabilities in this case are... 459 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,300 I may be wrong, and this is my opinion, but this is what I think. The 460 00:44:27,300 --> 00:44:32,760 overwhelming probability, based on the record of the Chicago police made over 461 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,600 the last 30 years, are that Paul was beaten to within an inch of his life. 462 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,920 if I had a bet on it, that's what I'd bet, because that's what I think, 463 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,840 this is what the Chicago police have been doing to get confessions. 464 00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:45,720 The memory of man runneth not to the contrary. 465 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,640 This thing has got a history going back 40 years. 466 00:44:49,060 --> 00:44:50,920 The history is disgraceful. 467 00:44:51,370 --> 00:44:56,430 The tradition is bad. It's worse than bad. It's unconscionable. 468 00:44:56,770 --> 00:45:03,270 And this has been going on. I'm not talking just about Paul's case now. 469 00:45:03,810 --> 00:45:07,830 I'm talking about the beaten and battered people that I've seen with my 470 00:45:07,830 --> 00:45:10,430 eyes, fresh from police stations. 471 00:45:10,730 --> 00:45:14,770 All the people that allegedly fell down the stairs. 472 00:45:15,370 --> 00:45:20,070 All the people that allegedly accidentally ran into the cell door. 473 00:45:23,580 --> 00:45:29,980 all the beaten and bruised and battered people that have been beaten up in these 474 00:45:29,980 --> 00:45:33,880 Chicago police stations for the last 30 years. And I'm not saying all police 475 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:34,960 officers do it. 476 00:45:35,220 --> 00:45:39,560 I'm not saying that any police officers do it all the time. And I'm not saying 477 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,240 that I'm sure they did it to clump, because I don't know. What I do know is 478 00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:47,960 a man goes into one of those police stations and is held incommunicado, he's 479 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:48,960 fair game. 480 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:26,100 Monday morning, March 26, 1962, a familiar silence came over 481 00:46:26,100 --> 00:46:27,600 the maximum security block. 482 00:46:28,340 --> 00:46:30,400 It was once called Death Row. 483 00:46:31,380 --> 00:46:34,500 The warden received a phone call from the United Press. 484 00:46:35,380 --> 00:46:38,280 The news from Washington had just come over the wire. 485 00:46:39,540 --> 00:46:43,780 Paul's final appeal had been denied by the United States Supreme Court. 486 00:46:53,420 --> 00:46:57,520 I have received unofficial word that the Supreme Court has turned down your last 487 00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:58,520 petition. 488 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,060 Have you given any thought to this, or has counsel talked to you? 489 00:47:08,340 --> 00:47:12,700 Yes, he talked to me all about it. 490 00:47:14,340 --> 00:47:21,040 And he let me know that I had exhausted, I have exhausted all my legal 491 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:22,800 rights. as far as appeal. 492 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:28,260 Do you intend to allow him to ask for commutation? 493 00:47:29,180 --> 00:47:36,180 Well, it's my intention to go along with him in whatever he thinks best 494 00:47:36,180 --> 00:47:37,180 to do for me next. 495 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:43,440 I'm glad that I was able to accomplish something of worth through all of this 496 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:44,440 long ordeal. 497 00:47:44,980 --> 00:47:50,420 And I hope, naturally, that it... 498 00:47:50,750 --> 00:47:57,710 doesn't want to be terminated in the manner that you and 499 00:47:57,710 --> 00:47:59,910 I know it could happen. 500 00:48:00,790 --> 00:48:07,710 If this is the will of God that this should be done, then 501 00:48:07,710 --> 00:48:09,610 I'll have to accept it. 502 00:48:11,670 --> 00:48:17,130 I'm more concerned about, especially with you and your view, and the 503 00:48:17,130 --> 00:48:18,450 relationship that... 504 00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:24,080 Given what I've had over the years, I find that I'm a little more concerned 505 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,340 about the effect that it will have on you. 506 00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:32,080 Now, Paul, you know it's a job that has to be done in case this does come about. 507 00:48:32,220 --> 00:48:39,020 You know my viewpoint relating to capital punishment. I firmly believe 508 00:48:39,020 --> 00:48:43,600 that it isn't a deterrent in any sense, and certainly it can't be called 509 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:44,600 punishment. 510 00:48:44,820 --> 00:48:46,840 I think it's you yourself who are... 511 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:52,020 I've proven that rehabilitation is possible regardless of what the crime 512 00:48:52,020 --> 00:48:54,940 that a man is charged with or found guilty of. 513 00:49:09,109 --> 00:49:14,450 I did some papers. I did some things. That's why I can't feel too embittered 514 00:49:14,450 --> 00:49:19,510 about my situation because I did some things. Man, if I got caught for them, 515 00:49:19,510 --> 00:49:22,430 be in kind of trouble. You never killed anybody. No, I've never killed anyone, 516 00:49:22,650 --> 00:49:23,650 you know, never. 517 00:49:24,170 --> 00:49:28,150 But just more or less prove what goes around, come around, you know. 518 00:49:28,530 --> 00:49:32,430 Well, they didn't get me for those things, but they got me for this shit. I 519 00:49:32,430 --> 00:49:35,430 can't, it's just, I tried to work up a... 520 00:49:35,630 --> 00:49:40,450 a tremendous indignation of anger and bitterness but i can't do it because uh 521 00:49:40,450 --> 00:49:44,930 ever since i was 16 years old i've been out there hustling 522 00:49:44,930 --> 00:49:59,930 long 523 00:49:59,930 --> 00:50:01,810 years of making himself over 524 00:50:03,150 --> 00:50:05,970 One thought remains uppermost in Paul's mind. 525 00:50:06,610 --> 00:50:08,010 The thought of death. 526 00:50:09,110 --> 00:50:14,750 The virtually certain knowledge that all his efforts toward redemption will end 527 00:50:14,750 --> 00:50:16,710 in the elected chair. 528 00:50:20,330 --> 00:50:22,510 There is no getting away from it. 529 00:50:23,770 --> 00:50:27,210 You can escape two moments in grief. 530 00:50:28,190 --> 00:50:35,080 I have managed to do so. my writing to a degree, but it's always 531 00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:41,880 there. It's like the bomb that surrounds you. It's like the cold 532 00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:48,720 steel that you see your arms fall up against accidentally when you're 533 00:50:48,720 --> 00:50:54,360 trying to relax, when you think cold, cold death. 534 00:50:55,660 --> 00:50:58,340 Then you think about the fellow. 535 00:50:59,690 --> 00:51:04,330 upstairs that ain't here with you you think about their troubles because their 536 00:51:04,330 --> 00:51:11,090 troubles are your troubles and when one of them get turned down you turn down 537 00:51:11,090 --> 00:51:17,930 because it makes you know that people that are ruling 538 00:51:17,930 --> 00:51:24,010 upon whether they live or they die are actually 539 00:51:24,010 --> 00:51:30,880 well to them they just knew Because he is a statistic and you 540 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:31,880 are a statistic. 541 00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:39,020 And you think, well, I am as less valuable to them as 542 00:51:39,020 --> 00:51:43,140 one, as he is. And so he is me. 543 00:51:43,820 --> 00:51:46,560 And the person died. The man was executed. 544 00:51:47,140 --> 00:51:50,960 You think you died too. 545 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:53,400 Because you know the process. 546 00:51:53,940 --> 00:51:56,540 You've been in a death cell. I've been down there. 547 00:51:58,190 --> 00:52:01,290 I know the deathly hush of it. 548 00:52:01,610 --> 00:52:08,590 I know the horror of seeing people that you've come to know and 549 00:52:08,590 --> 00:52:15,530 like and who you have did things for and who have small things. 550 00:52:15,950 --> 00:52:17,870 Just giving a cigarette. 551 00:52:18,710 --> 00:52:20,290 They're giving you a cigarette. 552 00:52:20,730 --> 00:52:26,150 You see them, the parents, who go through this ritual, taking your life. 553 00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:34,560 It's often like a part of a macabre dream, a nightmare, but you know it's 554 00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,280 nightmare because you can feel it within your heart. 555 00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,240 You can hear it pounding in your head. 556 00:52:40,620 --> 00:52:47,520 You can hear it. It's going to break out. You can feel it in your heart, in 557 00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:51,360 throat. You think over all of this, well, it is torture. 558 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,360 It's mental torture. It's physical torture. 559 00:52:56,170 --> 00:52:59,390 Will it actually prove anything to anyone? 560 00:53:00,370 --> 00:53:02,370 What will be gained out of it? 561 00:53:02,670 --> 00:53:07,730 And then after 1201, and you know that the man is dead, 562 00:53:08,050 --> 00:53:13,970 you find that there is no feeling other than a 563 00:53:13,970 --> 00:53:19,970 numbness within you and the knowledge that 564 00:53:19,970 --> 00:53:25,390 someone that you knew was gone, that has a vacuum in life. 565 00:53:25,770 --> 00:53:31,550 that there's what you can call this fellow's name that you often do 566 00:53:31,550 --> 00:53:36,830 accidentally, if you have been intimately associated with, and you've 567 00:53:36,830 --> 00:53:38,250 asked, never asked. 568 00:53:40,050 --> 00:53:46,830 I just started thinking in terms of their past, the effects of them 569 00:53:46,830 --> 00:53:50,410 waiting out these long, anxious hours. 570 00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:57,120 And we wonder about prayer. 571 00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:03,500 And we wonder about God. If he hasn't completely destroyed everything 572 00:54:03,500 --> 00:54:09,220 that we have been taught that God believed, that God's hand was. 573 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,100 And this will make you a little cynical. 574 00:54:12,380 --> 00:54:18,640 And this will make your fight to sustain a belief in mankind 575 00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:22,520 a little harder, a belief in God a little more harder. 576 00:54:25,100 --> 00:54:31,940 The thing that affects me most is that after a week or 577 00:54:31,940 --> 00:54:38,680 so has passed, nothing has changed. After the headlines have died down, 578 00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:39,680 has changed. 579 00:54:39,720 --> 00:54:41,700 Another fellow will come in for murder. 580 00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:44,780 Another fellow will be sentenced to death for murder. 581 00:54:45,100 --> 00:54:49,000 And they just go on and on and on in this vicious bobber. 582 00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,980 It confuses you so until you don't know whether you're in a nightmare or whether 583 00:55:01,980 --> 00:55:03,620 or not you're really living. 584 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:12,460 I found that I have to reach out at night. I work hard and exhaust myself 585 00:55:12,460 --> 00:55:13,620 so I can sleep. 586 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:20,000 Then before sleeping, I have to reach out and grab the bars and hold them. 587 00:55:21,540 --> 00:55:26,140 I guess this is just my way of holding on. 588 00:55:26,720 --> 00:55:32,240 to reality and holding on to my sanity the 589 00:55:32,240 --> 00:55:38,980 possibility that i won't just slip 590 00:55:38,980 --> 00:55:43,720 away and be no more i don't but that's the way i have to go to sleep